Land Speed Legends
Conversations with men & women who make land speed racing legendary!
Land Speed Legends
SAVE THE SALT: The Legendary Larry Volk discusses the Challenges and Triumphs of Save the Salt, the history of mining and BLM mismanagement of the Bonneville Salt Flats and where the racing community goes from here
The episode explores the critical state of the Bonneville Salt Flats, detailing its history, the effects of mining, and the community's fight for its preservation through initiatives like Save the Salt. The Legendary Larry Volk shares insights on the challenges posed by land use and the necessity for collective action to restore the flats for future generations.
• Historical context of potash mining
• Environmental impact of brine withdrawal
• Formation of Save the Salt Coalition
• Challenges with federal and local authorities
• Importance of raising public awareness
• Future strategies for salt restoration
• Emotional connections to the salt flats
• Call for collective community action
Welcome to Landspeed Legends, a podcast talking to the men, the women, the legends that make land speed racing great. Discover the stories of these ordinary people whose passion for land speed racing has made them legendary. And now here's your host the Bonneville Belle, the High Boy, honey, the salt princess, alison Volk-Dean.
Speaker 2:Today we have the legendary Larry Volk and we're doing something very different than normal. We're not just going to talk about their his story but this is part of his story but we're really going to talk about Save the Salt and what is going on with it. We're going to go through the history of it and bring us all the way up to the current times and what needs to be done. So, yeah, go for it, dad, let's hear what you have to. Where would we start if we were talking about Save the Salt?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm going to start back in 1970, 17,. Potash mining begins, okay, in 1970, 1918, brian Collection Dish dug at the Salt Daryl Loop and that's the. The soldero mining company pulled um brine from that. That ditch. Okay, that was the start of removing salt and brine from the salt flats. So they're mining.
Speaker 2:Okay, so they just started with salt and brine. It wasn't potash at that point. Yeah, they were after potash okay, yeah tell us what potash is and what it's for and why Potash it's been used for it's a fertilizer.
Speaker 3:Also, it's been used to do weapons, and that basically was back in that time during the First World War.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's why they were after.
Speaker 2:The potash was more for military than it was for for, yeah, for civilian type use, and so it is a potash is. I mean it's an important product. We need that potash.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely it is. But one of the things when they did the Saladero do and they dug the Saladero loop they put if everybody notices the dike is on the racetrack side, it would have been great if they'd have put it on the salderos at the inside dike then we wouldn't see that. You know wash of the dirt going onto the racetrack. Through the years that dike has shrunk a lot from when they first, even when I first went out there in the 50s.
Speaker 2:Okay, so 1918, what was the company that was doing that you said?
Speaker 3:Salt Arrow.
Speaker 2:Salt Arrow Okay.
Speaker 3:That was one of the first mining companies. There was probably some before that, but I haven't found out who it was or if they were ready to do anything that big and they don't do anything with the salt, it's just a pure byproduct. At that point in time I can't tell you if they did or didn't Okay.
Speaker 3:Then between 1919 and 1925 is when they put the Highway 40 through, which came from Salt Lake and headed towards Reno through Wendover. That had a little effect on the salt flats too, because it basically cut the north side from the south side. Okay, the salt flats was actually huge before that. The railroad did go through too at that same time, pretty much at that same time.
Speaker 2:And that was really the only way to get out there before the highway.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was the only way until they got the highway out.
Speaker 2:And that was 40, it wasn't I-80 yet.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was Highway 40. Yeah, it was a two lane. It was a death trap Because we've traveled it many times.
Speaker 2:when my dad worked out in Wendover, Sorry, what year did that go in, did you say? I didn't hear. I know you said it, but Between 1919 and 1925.
Speaker 3:Okay, okay, then we'll move on a few years. In 1946, the US Bureau of Land Management became the BSF custodian, so they became the custodian of the Salt Flats at that time.
Speaker 2:The BLM did.
Speaker 3:Yes. Ok, and before that it was just, it was state ran did yes, okay, and before that it was just oh, it was state ran yeah, it was actually, uh, salt lake city chamber of commerce.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, and they were. They were kind of a part of um putting on races out there and everything.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah when ab jenkins was running, they were all yeah, part of that. Yeah, how the federal government got a hold of it is, who knows, state probably just gave it up for well, you know it's a desert out there.
Speaker 2:Well, I think with the Salt Lake City Chamber of Commerce and I could be wrong, you can correct me but it kind of started getting a little political and a little bit kind of started to cause problems. Maybe I'm wrong on that.
Speaker 3:No, it could do. I'm not saying it wouldn't, yeah't, yeah, okay. Okay, then we're going to jump forward. 1963 the federal government issues potash lease covering 24 670 acres adjacent to the race venue. 14 miles of collection ditch allows for withdrawal of salt brine. That's, there's a killer right there as far as I'm concerned about salt flats, when they let them dig that 14 mile ditch, that, basically, I would say was probably the worst thing that could ever happen.
Speaker 2:And what ditch was that? Which one?
Speaker 3:It was a big 14 mile ditch that you see that they hold sold out of and brine out of when you drive out there. Guys were trying to kayak in it now and all that crap.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so in 1965, that's when the mining company requests permission to begin pumping from the collection ditch 1965, they started pumping it. Yeah, and it was still I believe at the time that was still Soldero.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Shortly after that, kaiser took over and I think that's when, kaiser, they abandoned the Soldero because they had that other ditch the 14-mile one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, why do? Just out of curiosity. Do you know why the mines need the ditch like that? Like what do they do? How does it work?
Speaker 3:well it, the subsurface brine from the aquifer flows into that ditch. Then they pump that ditch over uh, I don't know, it's probably a percentage 18, 19, 19 percent salt, and who knows what the pot is. I can never find out really what you know. Then they pump that over to the south side through collection dishes, through pipes and everything else, and that's when they start their processing of removing potash, and the salt is a waste product at that time.
Speaker 2:It still is right. Yeah, it still is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was interesting. I think it was probably about that that we started realizing that our local group that you know we're having problems that it was starting to it's sort of going away.
Speaker 2:When do you think you started noticing that?
Speaker 3:Oh, I probably in the 60s.
Speaker 2:In the 60s.
Speaker 3:In the 60s, yeah, as soon as they built that ditch basically we had meetings with the state and Kaiser and BLM and you know you got the usual deal from everybody.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Run around.
Speaker 3:In fact, Kaiser offered us to put a track inside the Saladero ditch.
Speaker 2:A track, yeah, wow.
Speaker 3:Which is nothing. Yeah, wow, which is nothing. There's no way we could have run it. So. And then in the late 60s and 1970s, studies undertaken by the Geological Survey, which is the USGS they surveyed the US Geological Survey to determine extent of the salt loss at the BSF. They did come up with in 1960, they showed the thickness of seven feet. In 1960. It dropped from 5.5 feet.
Speaker 2:Is that at the thickest, like the thickest place, or just where was that at Well?
Speaker 3:that was just in 1960. They drilled all over it. The USGS probably did the most extensive study of any person out there. You had the Lyons study and some others too, but basically they all came up with the same situation that salt loss was from mining and stuff.
Speaker 3:Probably in the late 80s, I think that's when Kaiser sold it to Riley Chemical. Now, 1975, Bonneville Salt Flats racetrack added to the National Historic Register, which we know. Another thing that hurt the salt flats, in my opinion, and a lot of people, is in 1972, in 1972, when they started putting in I-80.
Speaker 2:So I-80, the 14-mile ditch.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, sorry, go ahead, go ahead, no.
Speaker 2:I was just curious like what does it mean when it's on the historical register? What does that do for anything?
Speaker 3:Well, it hasn't done anything.
Speaker 2:I guess Right.
Speaker 3:I guess it was a feel-good deal. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:And that's a national historical.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a national historic register. You know you could put a rock on that if you wanted to.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It supposedly helped preserve it and stuff like that, but we never noticed anything.
Speaker 2:There was no difference For preservation preserve it and stuff like that, but we never noticed anything.
Speaker 1:There was no difference.
Speaker 3:On preservation. So anyway, 1975 Bondo Salt Flat racetrack added to National Register, which you just talked about. In 1975, the US Geological Survey and the BLM study concluded weather cycle may partly explain changes in the bond of salt flat. Okay, well, I agree with that.
Speaker 2:Good, or maybe it's more susceptible to weather because of the mining and the loss of it. I don't know.
Speaker 3:Well, it could be, I mean. But you know, let's face it, weather Right, if the wind, if it's dry wind, blows out there, you know all sorts of stuff. If it's dry wind blows out there, you know all sorts of stuff. So, but it was the other thing. Basically, on the USGS study, they indicated that brine withdrawal is a major cause of salt loss from the crust, and I think the Lyons study and some others also prove that too. The later studies. I don't know why they do indicate that, but they want to try to put a bunch of other stuff in too. That takes away.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that's the later studies that have been going on. I don't really agree with it. And the USGS said they—concurrent subsurface loss with salt in the solution was computed to be 850,000 tons per year.
Speaker 2:That's how much they take off.
Speaker 3:Yes, wow, so you know.
Speaker 2:And I wonder if that's even increased, because what year was that? 85, you said the geological study.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Oh, maybe—I don't know know you said it was anyways.
Speaker 3:So you know basically, uh, as as we get going um, they decided they at one time. There's 900,000 acre, 90,000 acres uh, of salt and it has gone down at this time is like in 1917, 1918.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's when the 90,000?.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they showed it. 30,000 acres of salt left. Wait in 1918?, no 1980.
Speaker 2:Oh, 1980, 30,000. Wow, that's, sad.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That was, and that's what you know 40 years ago, 40, yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah. So, man, you know there's no doubt that it's all us. I can tell you right now, before, after they I probably was basically after they got through when they started the pumping with Intrepid, the five-year study, I think after the third year, we went out just in. We had a little local test in Tune Well. It was underwater at the front end. So we go down clear down to the 10 mile and we were driving through crunchies that were two and a half, three inches thick and that was at the nine and a half mile, 10 mile because we were just running back a one-way test.
Speaker 2:So what does that mean? What do the crunchies mean, Mike?
Speaker 3:Well, it's when the salt gets dry, they'll pop up and we just call them crunchies.
Speaker 2:But they're potato chips crunchies whatever you want to call them Good, bad, what is it?
Speaker 3:It's just weather does it. You know, when it gets real hot they'll pop up and stuff. But is that a good thing that they do that, or is it? It's nothing? It's nothing because it'll, you know, but what it indicates to us that, yeah, we did have two and a half three inches of salt, clear back down to the nine and ten. Oh, yeah, we understand, we're going to do something about it. Well, that never has happened. I think. In reality, we're going to have to do something. You know, you've indicated maybe getting a. Somebody could put a program together for us that we could distribute out to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, let's, we'll talk about that. But let's, because I do want to talk about that, but I want to get back to the history of it and then come back to that. But so what you had is kind of like Intrepid took over is where we kind of stopped on the history of it. What happened after that?
Speaker 3:Well, the Riley, we had Riley, we went first off. Riley wanted well, we'll split it 50-50 to do this five-year test. And then finally Riley said okay, we'll take care of it. That's when they put the culverts underneath the freeway and everything else so they could pump brine over. That's all still set up. That's what Intrepid uses right now to move their. All they're required to do is move the salt that is left over when they do their process every year.
Speaker 2:Which is what the BLM is supposed to do, is make sure they put it back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the last couple of years-.
Speaker 2:Total failure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the last couple of years they have not done it. And I did go to the BLM and they said they were going to look into it and they should start pumping.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, should, is one thing.
Speaker 3:But their issues at the time. They need to know this by October that they can start pumping, and the BLM stopped the pumping for some reason because of the Jeremiah study.
Speaker 2:Well, let's get to that, but let's go back.
Speaker 3:Well, in 1989, basically that's when we started this we set the Save the Salt Coalition up Okay, great, yeah, so 1989, you start Save the Salt. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, what's the purpose of Save the Salt? What does it do?
Speaker 3:We just try to put pressure on the state, trying to get the BLM— to, you know come back and Mm-hmm, they know why. We're losing the salt Right. They just don't want to. You know, I don't think they want to really admit what's really going on. We have no idea what they. You know. They're getting some kind of resource from the mining company for, you know, the potash removal. Oh yeah, so we have no. I can't find out what that is. So in the 90s, you know the potash removal. Oh yeah, so we have no.
Speaker 2:I can't find out what that is. So in the 90s you start to save the salt. Well, and government doesn't want to do anything unless there's some pressure. They won't do anything unless there's pressure. But so Save the Salt starts, and that is the whole point is to create some pressure onto the government. But you guys did get some progress with the lay down right, the lay down project. Is that what it was?
Speaker 3:called. It was a test project, five-year test project that we did the Save the Salt. Did you know? Work with Riley Chemical.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And they finally did this and I think the first two or three years, if I can remember, they pumped over a million tons of salt in those three years Back on.
Speaker 2:What year was that what?
Speaker 3:year is this 1997, I believe.
Speaker 2:Through 2001 or something like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it went from at that time.
Speaker 2:yeah, it started in 97. Yeah. And was there a difference? Did you guys see a difference in the salt when they?
Speaker 3:oh, yeah, definitely because we were clear around on the east side of the dike trying to find a, find a racetrack and basically almost five miles. We had to put up a. We, we, utah, salt flat risk. Had a, a parachute stop, uh fence put up so if guy was gonna hit for the dike he could leash it. The only one they used was the big diesel truck. It at one time, yeah.
Speaker 2:The Phoenix? Is that what you're talking about? The Phoenix, yeah.
Speaker 3:But that's the problem. Within the two years we were probably another tenth or two-tenths of a mile to the west of where we are right now. Okay, maybe they couldn't see a total increase, but we got an increase of distance.
Speaker 2:Right Great salt distance, maybe not as depth.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we did get depth too, but we got back to where we could run two ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Okay, so that was it was helpful. And then what? So that was kind of just was that Riley that was doing that? Was that Riley in charge at that time?
Speaker 3:Who was that?
Speaker 2:Riley Was Riley the mining company.
Speaker 3:Riley was the mining company.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so did they just kind of do that out of the goodness of their own heart, or what was? Why did they do that? Yeah?
Speaker 3:From the BLM too, and the gentleman I worked with at Riley was really good. I was actually the only one that could even go out into the plant. They wouldn't let anybody else, you know, come out. Like I say, at first they wanted to split the program and I think at the time it really wasn't that much. At the time I'm trying to do in my head I think it was like $50,000 to get their project going and after that they were just cleaning out ditches they needed to use for process. So that was one of their main deals too. It wasn't just out of the kindness of their heart, but that basically showed that it works. I don't give a damn what anybody else says. That shows that the pumping works.
Speaker 2:You guys noticed a difference and then so what it stopped? For what reason? Well, the Pfizer product was over.
Speaker 3:And right after that that's when Riley sold out to Intrepid and you know Intrepid was not. There was nothing to say that Intrepid had to pump or anything else. It's through the BLM contract.
Speaker 2:And Intrepid's, who owns the mine now, yes, we're up to where Intrepid is, so we're kind of in the 2000s. So I think we should probably maybe start talking about the salt restoration project, unless there's something in between there that you wanted to mention and SEMA, myself, SEMA's lawyer, and we had somebody from the SCT.
Speaker 3:I can't remember right now, but we met with Intrepid actually out on the salt flats on somebody's trailer and they basically said you know, we're in business to you. Know this, we're in business to mine. That was our deal.
Speaker 3:Right and they really didn't indicate to us that, okay, we're going to help you out or we're going to, you know, and I think that's when we finally got the deal and you know, do a little pressure on them. They cleaned their two ponds that they got there each year so they can reuse it, ponds that they got there each year so they can reuse it. So sometimes they're in there pumping. I think the best we ever saw from it was about 650,000 tons. It has actually dropped back down to about 400, 350, 400.
Speaker 3:They didn't even do it last year, which doesn't even, no, they haven't done it in the last two years. Okay, so, and that's when, from what I can understand and you've looked at Jeremiah's study probably more than I- have that.
Speaker 2:Well, all it's going to do if you pump is it's going to go back in the aquifer. Fantastic, put it back in the aquifer, you know? Yeah, I have some issues with Jeremiah's study. It kind of just said, oh well, it's going to disappear and that's just kind of how it is.
Speaker 2:You know, and I want to be like look at the salt flats in Bolivia, look at the salt flats in Australia. Are those ones disappearing, like that? They're not. The thickness of those ones are very thick still and I think they're probably all formed in a similar way and Jeremiah's study kind of changed the way, the concept of how it was even formed, right, oh yeah. You look at the USGS study you look the lake Right.
Speaker 3:That was solved from the lake.
Speaker 2:So yeah.
Speaker 3:Again. The five-year pumping project started in 2002. So that's when Riley started doing the test pump.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh. 2002 is when the test pump. Yeah, oh, 2002 is when the yeah 97,.
Speaker 3:You know it started getting everything ready in 97, and then they got their agreement came that yes, we will pump. And then they started because they had to. You know they had to do a lot of work to get the brine over. They had to have a 16-foot culvert gun and a freeway and the railroad and everything else. So I, you know, basically, let's face it, and I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding that the BLM doesn't own that land we own that land yes yes.
Speaker 3:And when I went out I might be moving a little ahead here that you don't want to, but when I went out with the director, the state director of the BLM and then the West District manager, and I basically told him well, I don't agree with Jeremiah's study. I don't believe salt came from the mountains. That's the case. Why wouldn't we? Every flatland in the world would have salt Down at Lake Sevier. Land in the world that have salt down at Lake Sevier they're starting to do mining for even potash and lithium.
Speaker 3:And the gentleman that's doing that, he also says that it's a remnants of Lake Bonneville. When we were out there and I was showing that was the first time that state BLM had ever been out there. You know amazing, you know Wow, that's insane. And we got to talking and I says look, I know you guys are leaning on Jeremiah to study. That that's the gods. You know whole deal that the USGS and the other studies didn't seem to matter. I don't care where the salt came from, right, whether it came from the mountains, lake Bonneville or Mars.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I want it back.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And if the 200,000 tons that's over there right now needs to come back to the salt fest, right, intrepid has set up a they're the ones that set up the mining plan to do it. The $50 million over 10 years yeah, that's what they think it costs.
Speaker 2:Why don't you talk about that? So talk about what Save the Salt did when you guys were working with the state and the federal government.
Speaker 3:Right the state. When we did a little blitz with the House and the Senate for the Utah State, they finally came up with a $5 million deal. They put a million out. They said if the federal government would meet, that they would keep meeting it. Well, the federal government never came up with their money.
Speaker 2:Right. So what happened was the state said we'll come up with this amount of money to help create the pumping project, and what was going to happen was the mine was going to get upgraded so that they could pump the salt back on, and the mine was on board. The racers were coming up with money, the state of Utah was coming up with money and we were relying on Chris Stewart, who I'm very disappointed in he was going to put in.
Speaker 3:He was on the committee. Yeah, the committee that he could have put in.
Speaker 2:And he didn't. He said he would and he didn't, he said he would and he didn't. And then, um, then covet hit and then I'll help work loose. But now we're back and we're. I mean, how much did the federal government have to come up with? What were you guys asking for at that time?
Speaker 3:they if they matched the five million dollars you're just asking for five.
Speaker 2:No, you're asking for five million dollars from the state of ut says we have this $5 million, yeah aside. And how much did the racers have?
Speaker 3:Well, the racers at the time were required, but we could have you know. But you guys, it was like a million we had to like come up with and how I think, like I say, how the racers had come up with the money is through SEMA, through all the people.
Speaker 2:We would figure a way All the manufacturers, we would have figured out.
Speaker 3:If somebody knew that the project was going to go, we could have found the money and the federal government was going to put in $5 million. The state of Utah says we'll put up $5 million. If the federal government will put up $5 million to get it started $5 million a year.
Speaker 2:Is that it?
Speaker 3:They never put up anything.
Speaker 2:a year Is that it.
Speaker 3:They never put up anything. But was that the ask? Was the ask $5 million a year? It was asked, yeah, to put up. It was put to okay, the state's got $5 million. They'll give it to their project. Get it started if the federal government puts up $5 million. They never did Right.
Speaker 2:Which is so crazy because it's just such a small amount for the federal government looking at what has been, I mean just in recent events, looking at what has been spent on what?
Speaker 1:And we were asking for $5 million for something that is an.
Speaker 2:American treasure and a national treasure and a world treasure and they couldn't put up $5 million. It's disgusting.
Speaker 3:I know it. So anyway, basically, the state did release a million dollars to the state USGS and they did some studies and part of the Jeremiah study was part of it. Listen, we don't need another study. We don't need another study, it's been studied.
Speaker 1:And to move forward.
Speaker 2:We don't need to do another study Like why don't we just take that time and that money and put it into the restoration project and see if you guys can see the result? That was what we were asking for, which I think is very reasonable. So if we were going to do that again, we would have to just start all over from scratch. Yeah, and Celeste Malloy is the congressman.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and she worked for Stewart.
Speaker 2:I know she's OK, we'll see. We'll see how good she is. I wonder. But you know we have. I noticed that Mike Lee, who is the senator for the state of Utah, one of the senators he is on like one of the natural resource committees, is he not?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I wonder if Celeste Molloy is. So we just basically have to start over to get going on it Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 3:I think and you know I've talked about this already you've got to forget the state, yeah, even the local state, blm Okay, they cannot acquire any money to help. We're going to have to go to senators and congressmen of this state. That's why we need to put some kind of a package together, you know, rather than just hey, we need this.
Speaker 2:And yeah, so we're looking into some kind of video that we can put out. There needs to be a meeting because we need to figure out a plan of attack. Social media is the only way to do this Right. Social media is the only way to do this, in my opinion, I think social media is the only way to get attention and pressure. I think we do, as racers have more leverage than we think.
Speaker 3:Well, I'll give you a good example. When we were trying to get the $5 million, we did a blitz to all the senators and the congressmen on their emails. We did a blitz to all the senators and the congressmen on their emails and one of the senators finally came up to me and shut those emails off, and next time we're going to say no, it worked, you know, so it worked.
Speaker 2:But they don't like that pressure.
Speaker 3:No, but it's got to go to the federal government.
Speaker 2:Fine, and we'll pressure the federal government, but that's the only thing that's going to work. Yes, because they don't want to move, they don't want to do anything if they don't have to.
Speaker 2:It's just the way it works. I think we are in a, I think this is convened into a perfect opportunity with our federal government right now, because they're clearing out all the waste that is clearly waste of money, and now there will be room, I think, for things that are here in the States, which this thing has been so neglected, and I think there's just such an appeal type. Really, we have a good market and we can make it happen.
Speaker 3:Two things I'll come back with us on is the Jeremiah study and what's her name with the University of Utah yeah. Intrepid put the study together to do the 10-year project and what it would cost. They know it works Right or they wouldn't even. They wouldn't even. You know, look at it. Sure, they're going to probably make some money out of it and help them out, but you know, if they put it back and if right now and this is another thing we haven't talked about there are no pumping, anymore, from the north lease at the 14-mile ditch.
Speaker 3:Intrepid Steel has a lease on it but they're going to hold the lease because they don't want anybody else to get a hold of the lease, which we don't either, because somebody might come in and say okay, we're going to go after lithium, we're going to go after everything you know, and, let's face it, the BLM would probably go. Oh okay, you know.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, they. They like the money coming out of it, which the whole point of the BLM is, so that mines don't come in and just rape the land and not put anything back and not restore it.
Speaker 3:How the hell there was never a restoration in the 20-year pumping projects is beyond me how that did not.
Speaker 2:Yes, the BLM has failed. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And another thing too is I brought up to the state director. I was showing him all the crap that's out there and everything else. I told him. I said you know what, if I went down to Bears Ears which a lot of people have to realize and picked up a rock, I'd be in jail. Yeah, you know, but not out here. Yeah. So, and they're supposedly they're going to put some signs up, they're trying to figure out if they can legally say if you do this, you're going to get you know a misdemeanor or whatever. I don't know.
Speaker 2:It hasn't happened yet.
Speaker 3:A misdemeanor for what Burning fires on the salt flats and all that crap you know.
Speaker 2:I mean, here's the other thing. It's a public land.
Speaker 3:You can't stop people and you want people to go enjoy it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't. That's another thing that I think has saved Save the Salt, and especially through social media, is that we need to educate the public in terms of I want people to go out there, I want them to go enjoy it. I want other people besides racers to love it because it's an amazing place. I'm even not against burning fires if you just got to take this. I mean, it's common sense and normal practice that you take everything out that you brought in.
Speaker 3:But you know, back in the late 90s, near 2000,. We never had that problem.
Speaker 2:Right, but this is okay. So the reason why we have that problem now is because of it is because of social media. I think we can use that in our favor to save the salt. Be like you want to go camp on the mud or do you want to go camp on the salt flats? I mean, my kids are 12 and 11 and they're watching YouTube videos and there's all these YouTubers that are flying in Salt Lake, going to the salt flats, you know, even if just to go stay out there, and I think that's something that we can really harness and use towards our advantage to saving the salt.
Speaker 3:Well, one of the things I would like to racers don't go out there when you look at the salt and everything else and say it looks great, it's not great. I don't care what you say, it's not great yeah.
Speaker 2:And another thing too, I just and I this is just like my own PSA is that people get out there and they don't know that you can't like to go do donuts. If I was not raised out there and didn't know anything about the salt, I would be like, yeah, like donuts seem fine to go do out there, and the last thing you need is a bunch of racers hopping on there and just being complete assholes to them about it. You know, like I can say like hey, you need to respect that. But I've just seen comments where I'm like, oh, that does not look good, yeah, and people don't know because why don't they know?
Speaker 3:because there's no signs, there's nothing out there that says that supposedly the blm is looking at doing and putting a sign up right now. Another thing I'll tell you a little story. Uh, dennis and I, we were both out there and we seen this gal. She was out on a four-wheeler. She's right just past the start line just spinning donuts like mad, and they were from Florida, just passing through. And when she come back in, I told Dennis, I'm just going to talk to Dennis, maybe you shouldn't. No, no, oh, I take it back. It wasn't in, it was Dallas.
Speaker 2:Oh, Dallas, Because we took the trailers out. Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:So I go over to her and I says you know where you're spending donuts and stuff. Guys are running 200 and 300 miles an hour and you know you're affecting the track and stuff.
Speaker 2:And she's probably like oh no, I'm so sorry you know.
Speaker 3:No, she says well, there's nothing, says I can't Right, you know.
Speaker 2:But I think some people would be like oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think people would generally respect that yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, and she's right, there's nothing tells her she can't go out there and do that.
Speaker 1:Right you know.
Speaker 3:I mean it's, and I'm working I'm working with the BLM to try to get that. So is Dennis Sullivan. We're trying to get something. That's a warning that you know what goes on here. There was a deal coming out of the Supreme Court. I don't think a lot of people realize that we could not, at the time, stop anybody from coming out while we're racing. Yeah, they can go anywhere they want. They could drive right in the middle of the track while some guy's running.
Speaker 2:Because you can go on public land you can't stop people from going on public land, which I I'm totally for. But that did change right like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we they got a yeah. And there's one thing I'll say for a mike at the blm he did a great job getting they. They fought like mad to get that good because I think they finally realize that you know, hey, you're putting people in danger like no, it would be definitely it would affect the lake bed too, you know, hey, you're putting people in danger?
Speaker 2:Like no, it would be, definitely it would affect the lake bed too. Oh yeah, I know I feel like when that happened in 2020, when COVID hit and that didn't go through, I think the wind out of the sails was really taking out for a little bit. But, I think we're just in such a prime spot to strike for Save the Salt. I think we can get.
Speaker 3:I think we can get it done. So I like you and I think your idea is great that we need to get whatever a company that can put a program together for us, and I agree, get on social media TikTok.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because, like I mean, I even had a, one of those pinup girls that were out there contact me and say, hey, if there's something that I can do on my end to help, like you know, through social media or through the events that she's doing, she's like I, she just loved it out there and she wants to. You know, there's this, this desire to to help with help. So, yeah, we have the, we have the, the social media people that, um, people that are willing to help, or you know, uh, I don't know, I, I think we can. Yeah, I think we're in a spot.
Speaker 3:You know, we we do have a Save Us All Coalition which, uh, I know I'd like to get you on that board.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Um, but we need to wake that thing up again, regardless of you know.
Speaker 2:And I think we need to have a clear message. Like, there's a lot of information on Save the Salt and it's detailed and I think that's great, but you need to have like just a concise point of why are we saving the salt? Yeah, what is the purpose? And I think you can actually even to different groups. You can have a different message. And oh, maybe the people that make movies, that group has a reason why to say they want it. And the social media people will have a reason they want to save it and the racers have a reason they want to save it.
Speaker 3:And another thing we've and I think we got to. There's a lot to deal about. Well, you know, racing is a big part of out there, but that can't be the thing you're going after, because some people don't care about racing. Why do we care about the race now? So you've got to look at. I mean, there's wedding pictures taken out there Exactly. There's commercials. There's a lot of stuff going on, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, it's the only salt flats that's super accessible. There's three salt flats in the whole world, yep, and one's right here and it's very accessible and easy to get to and it's worth saving.
Speaker 3:Hopefully with the new administration and the people we've got right now center lee and and carmerson owens, and you know some of those that I think that, but we have to put a program together. Right, we just can't walk away. Can you help?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah. So I think there needs there's a lot of.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of film. There's a lot of good stuff clear back in the 50s that show things were happening. You got to put all that conglomerate together, make a video Like a 10 minute.
Speaker 2:So if anybody's out there that knows how to do a video together. We need something. We need some help with social media. And even like let's start going on podcasts of different groups that it would appeal to.
Speaker 3:Well, you take the Wild Horse Organization. They sued the federal government and they get $80 million a year to take care of wild horses. $80 million a year. Do we look at that situation? Do we go after, you know, for the BLM for not taking care of, you know, a natural resource that we got out there? Yeah, you know, let's face it, mother Nature's not making another one. Yeah, so I have no problem with the mining If they would have put in there you put it back when you take off.
Speaker 3:At least that much you know. Whatever's left over needs to go back on the flat.
Speaker 2:The restoration of it. What's left on that lease? How much? When did they sign that lease? Well, it's a 20-year deal, but when did they sign that?
Speaker 3:And if they haven't done anything wrong, they just automatically got to be renewed, okay, so?
Speaker 2:when is it renewed? Well, we can find out, okay. Is it renewed? Well, we can find out, okay.
Speaker 3:You just got to go to the BLM and check with them and stuff. So when it's due again, yeah, but we still need the mining company to help us get this done. Right, right, we need them.
Speaker 2:So I mean, the mining is part of the problem, but they are part of the solution now too. So we need them in terms of being the solution.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean the sad part about this. This all started back in the 50s and 60s and supposedly all the money that came off of the mining into the BLM was supposed to go back into salt restoration. It goes back in the general fund. We've never seen any of it.
Speaker 2:Well, that salt coalition, what is it? What is the difference between Save the Salt and the Save the Salt Coalition?
Speaker 3:Well, basically, the Save the Salt Coalition, that's what we call it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Then you have the I think they call it the Salt Flats Coalition. That's just a local group that we put together. I mean we should just bring it all back to save the salt. Well, it's all going to come together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it needs to just be all one group.
Speaker 2:Because it gets confusing.
Speaker 3:I think we do have finances in the Save the Salt budget that we could put towards.
Speaker 2:Social marketing, social marketing, stuff like that.
Speaker 3:You need to. That's what I say, and I need to. That's what I say. And I need to get back with Stuart, although he's retired.
Speaker 2:Tell us who Stuart is.
Speaker 3:Stuart Goswine was the legal person back in Washington DC for the SEMA and he's had a real interest even now, although SEMA is also still giving him the he can, yes, work on the salt flats. So SEMA is still involved Somewhat.
Speaker 2:They've backed out a little bit. I mean, but if we had a, there was a major plan. I think we had a major deal going?
Speaker 3:Yeah, they would. You would need them to go to manufacturers to help. Okay, you know, you got AMA and I think we got to put some kind of a program together to show everybody that, okay, you're with this, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think so too. I think we need to get working on that. If anybody out there knows any kind of social media, or we need to get a video put together, some videos put together to put on social media, I mean we could start working on it. I think we could make it happen.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we can. Even there's got to be people here in Salt Lake City that do that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:We got to sort of research that and see if we can find. Yeah, and, like I say, we do have funds in Save the Salt.
Speaker 2:Like to afford that, yeah.
Speaker 3:To do this, but we'd have to get the you know all the boards to say, okay, yeah, we're on board with you know, let's do this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I like it. What else do you think? I have a lot of different thoughts on things, but I think we've touched is the way to go and, in terms of getting the word out and saving the salt with our message, I think there's a lot of communities that would be interested in it, including the hot rod community, the racing community, the film community, the social media community. We have all of these, these options. I don't know, even like the schools in Utah, like just starting to, I don't know. I think there could be even a program there, where you're. When I interview people I hear so many people talk about oh, the first time I heard about the Salt Flats was in school. I read this book or they showed this video and like maybe you know that's the future, is those?
Speaker 2:people so maybe start there, but I think social media would help with that, because you have that's where they're at.
Speaker 3:You know, maybe we could get somebody like from BYU or the University of Utah that does you know, studying to do that kind of stuff, that could you know, put something together for us. It's, you know. Studying to do that kind of stuff, that could you know, put something together for us. It's, you know, we got to. Just I mean, let's face it, I'm 84 years old and I've been chasing this clear through the sixties and been lied to forever, Right, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they'll, they'll lie to you and you just gotta I think you just gotta put the screws to them in terms of the pressure and that that is what. So I think there will be times for call of action when we're like, hey, you know, send out there, get your, call your senators and call your congressmen, but I think we need to get our yeah we'll get things together and we're going to save this.
Speaker 3:We need to have something prepared that they can use. Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I agree, we just got to organize. At this point we're kind of it kind of put us on our heels the last blow, and I just think we need to regain our footing, get after it.
Speaker 3:I mean, let's face it, our family and we've been involved with this stuff for, you know, forever. It seems like to me.
Speaker 2:How many years do you think we have if it didn't happen to to race I?
Speaker 3:you know that you had to just like guess. I mean, I would say, if nothing else happened, maybe five, six years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know I mean it's yeah I mean to show.
Speaker 3:I mean I got in in 1975 into the 200-mile-an-hour club. I was the 135th member in a club that's got over 800 members now and we even noticed it back then. That's when we started a local group here. Just, you know, we got lied to all the time by the BLM and everybody, and even Kaiser at the time. You know, yeah, we're going to do something Well, and we're stupid old racers. We just said, okay, well, good Thanks.
Speaker 2:Well, you're honest and so you think other people are going to be honest, and just politics, it's all politics and it's. But we can. We can get. We can get down and dirty with them if we have to and make it happen. I am so positive about this. Listen, the Salt Flats is already all over social media. It's already out there, and if people just knew it was in danger of being gone. I just think we have the upper hand.
Speaker 1:We just need to use it. We have the leverage.
Speaker 2:We need to use it, Okay. Well, that's where we're at and we're just we're waiting to kind of gather everything, and then we're going to, we're going to get after it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, everybody out there. You know we're going to chase it. This is our last. This is our last chance yeah. Yeah, we can't get it done now.
Speaker 2:We're in trouble yeah we can't get it done now we're in trouble. We're getting it done. Okay, thanks, Dad. Thanks for listening to.
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